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Mindful Self-Compassion

May 26, 2021

[intro music]

Elliot Sutton: Hello, and welcome to the season finale of Sex, Drugs, & Self Care! This podcast is brought to you by the University of Northern Colorado’s Office of Health Promotion and hosted by me, Elliot.

This week’s topic is mindful self-compassion, and the episode is going to be a little bit different than most of the other one we’ve done. Early in this last semester, our guest Sarah Spencer shared a book with me. It’s The Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook by Kristin Neff, PhD and Christopher Germer, PhD. We both read it, and this episode is going to be a mix of discussing the content and me interviewing Sarah about her experience going through the book.

So, brief basic intro to the contents of the book so you know what we’re talking about: mindful self-compassion. The idea is that by offering ourselves kindness and support when we struggle or fail, we’re left with a lot more energy to do better in the future instead of just like, wasting a bunch of time berating ourselves for not being who we want to be.

At its most basic level, mindful self-compassion is just treating yourself the way you would treat a friend you really love. The authors of this book, Neff and Germer, they split it into 3 core elements to kind of make it easier to understand. They say that mindful self-compassion is composed of self-kindness, common humanity, and mindfulness.

Self-kindness is kind of, you know, pretty self-explanatory. Approaching ourselves with kindness, trying to see when we are in a state of distress, what we can do to soothe and comfort ourselves.

Common humanity is about reminding ourselves that everybody is going through pain and struggle. Everybody has fallen down like we have fallen down, and if we see good in other people and love other people even though they’ve also messed up, you know, we can offer that to ourselves. Basically, common humanity is that we’re all in this together. Basically, common humanity is that we’re all in this together, and you are not less worthy of healing than anybody else is.

Now, mindfulness, I’m gonna quote directly from the book here: “Mindfulness involves being aware of moment to moment experience in a clear and balanced manner. It means being open to the reality of the present moment, allowing all thoughts, emotions, and sensations to enter awareness without resistance or avoidance.” The authors think that, by being more mindful of our emotions, by seeing them for what they are and letting them pass through, we’re able to respond to them more appropriately. We can’t get through our pain until we feel it first.

Quick note on mindfulness here. You’ve probably heard that word a lot, it has gotten really really popular in psychology, for good reason! I mean, it’s proven to be really effective, it’s accessible to everybody. You know, being more mindful is essentially free [laughs] to everybody. It’s important to me to note here that the concept of mindfulness comes to us from Eastern religious traditions, especially from Buddhism and Hinduism. Applications of mindfulness in Western psychology and mental health treatment have been critiqued by people who do practice these religions for stripping mindfulness of its spiritual significance to kind of be sold to a larger audience. If you find mindfulness as healing and as helpful as I do, it’s worth learning more about its origins, and it’s always important to honor and respect where it comes from. 

Without further ado, here’s the interview with the lovely, one and only, Sarah Spencer. Sarah uses she/her pronouns and is the graduate assistant here at CPE. She’s also the graduate intern for New Student Orientation. She is currently pursuing a master’s degree in higher education and student affairs leadership.

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E: Welcome Sarah, thank you so much for being here today!

Sarah Spencer: Yes, thank you for having me! I’m super excited to be here. [laughs]

E: So today we are talking about mindful self-compassion, which, [laughs] honestly I don’t really know where to start.

SS: It’s a big topic to kind of just like dive into, you know?

E: Exactly, exactly.

SS: It’s huge. Like I, I’ve been re-reading stuff and like, kind of writing little notes and all that to make sure that I cover everything I want to talk about, you know? [laughs]

E: Right, yeah. Okay, yeah! So to get started I guess, can you tell me like, what you think of when you think of self-compassion? And what makes it different than self-esteem?

SS: Yeah! So, I think when it comes to self-compassion, like, that mindfulness component is super important. I think self-compassion starts from, like, it’s internalized. It starts from like, within you. While you know, on the other hand, like self-esteem, I think it’s based on your environment. It’s based on, you know, people comparing themselves to you and you comparing yourself to others. It’s really dependent on your external factors and I think for self-compassion, it’s really personal and I think there’s a lot of self-work that goes into it. So I think it really, it starts from, you know, within yourself.

SS: Yeah, huge difference and [laughs] it hurts me that people kind of confuse them because self-esteem is really negative. And I think that, you know, when it comes to self-compassion people sometimes think it’s selfish, but I think it’s more to like better your mental health and to be more mindful of yourself. So yeah, definitely it’s more of a, within yourself.

E: Yeah, definitely. I loved when the authors made that comparison where like, self-esteem is something we think about when we’re doing well –

SS: It’s a measurement, yeah! Mm-hmm.

E: -- but like, when we fail, that’s when we have to practice self-compassion.

SS: And I think self-compassion is so individual compared to self-esteem and self-esteem’s just kind of like, you’re comparing yourself. You’re measuring yourself against, you know, something that doesn’t really exist. It’s just like a societal thing.

E: Yeah, exactly.

SS: Yeah, and self-compassion is really personal in that sense.

E: Yeah, definitely. So you talked a little bit about how the mindfulness piece was really important. How do you practice mindfulness, or what are some other ways people could start?

SS: Yeah, I think mindfulness is… it’s kind of intimidating. I think people assume that mindfulness is directly related to, like, meditating, yoga, when it’s honestly like a day to day thing. I kind of see mindfulness as like a habit almost. I think when you are mindful with yourself, you kind of accept and almost make peace with your emotions and like, your thoughts. And you don’t really resist anything. You know, all humans suffer. All humans go through like, hardships in their lives and I think that being mindful is not resisting emotions. It’s being open to feeling everything.

SS: Mindfulness is just so important for self-compassion! I think it’s a lot of self-work to be disciplined with being mindful day to day and it’s really vulnerable, too. I think it’s just allowing every emotion and every thought to come in whether you want it there or not. Yeah. Mindfulness is super important and I think it’s super beneficial to your mental health. And I think like, you know, to start being mindful with yourself, it’s just little things, you know? Like, I think for me specifically I’ve tried to be more mindful with, like, if I’m multitasking and I’m not giving, like, 100% into something. I try to be mindful with my screen time and trying to be more present with like, my environment almost. So that can look like your basic, you know, go for a mindful walk. Or it could even be like, you know if you’re trying to do a homework assignment, just trying to be in the present moment really sitting with yourself and just being. Um, so I think that’s what I really think mindfulness is to its core.

E: Yeah, definitely. It’s so important and so hard, yeah –

SS: Yeah.

E: -- to just like, let things come and go as they’re going to come and go and figure out how to deal with it.

SS: And you know, we just don’t realize like all of the resistance that there is to emotions. And I think it’s between the people you surround yourself with or just society as a whole, like, societal norms, like not feeling emotions like anger. You know, anger’s seen as a really negative emotion, but it’s actually healthy to welcome that emotion.

SS: You know, I kind of see it as like a meet and greet in my head, you know, to be mindful. [laughter] You just welcome in all of the emotions, all of the thoughts, like no matter how ugly or even how positive they are.  And I just kind of like, make peace with it, and then I either let them go or I keep them around type of thing.

E: Yeah! [laughter] I love that. So much. Yeah, um. I know, I think I’ve heard similar things before of like, you can’t deal with something if you don’t sit with it long enough to know what it is in the first place.

SS: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly, and I just – I love metaphors when it comes to mindfulness, because it’s such a personal journey, I think. So yeah, like that meet and greet. And then I think the opposite of that would be like, you know, having an intrusive roommate living inside of you. You know? If you’re resisting something and like, you don’t want it there but it’s staying, um, I think that’s really opposite of being kind to yourself.

E: Yeah.

SS: Yeah, definitely.

E: One of the big messages that they sort of pushed in these first few chapters was that self-compassion and mindfulness can be most simply put as like, treating yourself the way you’d treat a friend.

SS: Mm-hmm.

E: And I was wondering, what do positive, supportive, healthy friendships look like to you? How do you like to treat your friends and be treated by them?  

SS: Yeah! And I love that message in the book. I love how they bring in friendship to this because, you know, we are really compassionate towards the friends we care about! And unfortunately, being that level of compassionate toward yourself is seen as selfish a lot of the times. And I think, you know, for friendships, I think a healthy friendship… I’ve been thinking about this ever since I read that chapter, and I think a healthy friendship has, you know, boundaries.

SS: I think a healthy friendship has a lot of self-awareness on both sides of the friendship. Boundaries, you know, they come across as like, negative, you know? Having to set a boundary has a negative connotation to it. But I think, you know, boundaries are actually pretty positive. Because if you know your boundaries, you are self-aware, and I think that’s the most authentic you can be in a friendship. And being able to communicate that too, because I think being able to communicate healthy boundaries and being self-aware of your space in that friendship and the other friend’s space, I think it shows a lot of emotional intelligence, I think.

SS: Yeah. You know, you think about all the horror stories with friendships and like roommates and all this stuff, and it kind of always goes back to like, do you know your boundaries and do you know your friend’s boundaries? And I think that’s, that’s being super self-aware in the friendship. Yeah. I think that’s just the perfect, that’s my ideal friendship in my head, 100 percent. [laughs]

E: Definitely, yeah. Just like, honest communication and healthy boundaries.

SS: Cause boundaries don’t have to be a bad thing! Like you can still be super open with a friend, you can still be like, buddy buddy, hanging out all the time, and you can still have healthy boundaries. And I think that goes for like, if not most then all people in my life type of thing.

E: Definitely. Yeah, yeah, I mean if you don’t have those boundaries set then, you know, you have to be taken care of at some point.

SS: Yeah, yeah!

E: And if they’re a solid friend, they also want you to take care of yourself and be honest about that stuff.

SS: Yeah, and that’s a really great point. If your friend respects those boundaries and they respect you as a person then, you know, that’s a true friend! Like, they just want the best for you and, yeah, that’s a really great point. You know, it would be returned if it’s a healthy friendship type of thing.

E: So in what ways have you been able to apply those values and ideas to your friendship with yourself? Like do you think you’re a good friend to yourself, and if so, how? You know? [laughing]

SS: Yeah! And I think this question is the core of mindful self-compassion. Because I think a lot of people don’t understand what self-compassion means. And yeah, I think when you know your own boundaries, like boundaries are essentially like, the most vulnerable pieces of ourselves. I think knowing, like, your own boundaries means that you really know yourself. It goes a long way for mental health and knowing your emotions and like, what emotions you’re feeling and how you express those emotions. And I think that like, when you really know yourself, you know your self-worth. And I think like, as a society, self-worth is really tricky to talk about because, you know, it’s that fine line between people judging you and thinking like, “Oh, they’re so full of themselves, like, super self-centered.” And I think there’s a huge difference between being self-centered and having self-worth. Ultimately, if you have self-worth, you have kindness for yourself. Like, you show yourself kindness because you know your value and um, I think you can’t really get to that level without being super vulnerable with yourself.

SS: Boundaries just have such a negative thing, but I think boundaries are so important. Um, and I think it’s just the truest, most rawest way to know yourself.

E: Yeah, yeah. Like you said, yeah, boundaries are super important and not something we talk about very much or learn about very much.

SS: Because it’s a negative thing. [laughs]

E: Right. Um, how do you feel like you figured out what your boundaries are? Or like, how do people get to that place?

SS: Yeah, I think knowing your boundaries is a long journey to be on. You know, I think your boundaries – it’s also, I think – hmm. That’s a good question. [sighs] Because I would think that your boundaries, they do change person to person I think, depending on the nature of your friendship or relationship to that person, um, but I think discovering boundaries can either happen through like trial and error, like if your boundary is crossed, and being able to recognize that someone crossed your boundary. Or even recognizing if you, yourself, crossed your own boundary! I actually find myself doing that more than having someone else intrude my boundaries and break them down and stuff.

SS: And I think the feeling I get when I cross my own boundary, it’s uncomfortable. Like I have issues, you know, figuring out what emotion I’m feeling. And then I think trial and error, and I think you really just learn as you go. I think that’s the most authentic I can be with this because I’ve been on a self-compassion journey for the past six months I think? Seven months? And I think how I’ve learned what my boundaries are is having them crossed by others, crossing my own boundaries, whether that looks like in a work place or in a friendship. And I think those experiences help you notice them more. Like, okay, like, this makes me uncomfy because X, Y, Z. Or um, with this person, like, I’m like… you notice certain things in the friendship that maybe aren’t super healthy and then  you see that in other people and like, that’s how you can set that boundary. Like maybe, for example, if a friend has, um, you know, if you spend a lot of time with someone and it’s just like too much and you just leave that person and you don’t feel super like, great or super energetic. If you feel more drained than before you saw that friend, that’s just an example, but I think it just goes into being really in tune with your emotions.

SS: Um, yeah. Like that resistance part? Like if you resist your emotions, I would think it would be extremely hard for you to figure out your boundaries if you resist your emotions, yeah.

E: Definitely! Yeah. It’s like the same mindfulness stuff we were talking about earlier of like, you have to let, let the bad stuff come through or whatever to figure out what you don’t want or what it is you don’t like about it and why it bothers you.

SS: Yeah. You gotta be open to all emotions I think and, um, I think that’s the only way to get to know your boundaries, honestly. Trial and error and just let all of your emotions flow through, through ya, in and out type of thing.

E: Yeah. You said you’ve been working on this like, six, seven months. Have you noticed a difference since you’ve started, in like in the way that you feel?

SS: You know, I honestly do. I, I feel um… I honestly feel more lovable. Um, I feel, ever since I started this journey, I feel like I can give and receive love on a deeper level. I can feel feelings deeper, I think. And I know that’s like super vulnerable, but I think now, I can feel good about myself when I am vulnerable with people. Unlike in the past when, before I went on this self-compassion journey, when I would be vulnerable with people, I would feel icky after the conversation! I would feel, like, so uncomfortable! Like I would have to recover from it, almost! And I don’t know if anyone else can resonate with that, but I think “icky” is the only word that really like, describes how I felt after being vulnerable with people and like, almost regretting it. [laughing]

SS: And now, I feel almost empowered that I am so comfortable to be vulnerable with people. And um, yeah. I think it’s, it’s still, like I’m still on the journey, and I think at times I, I don’t feel lovable. Um, but I think I’ve made a ton of progress and I think that’s the one thing with, you know, being on a self-compassion journey or something similar, you know, you always take like, it’s always gonna be your ups and downs. Like you take a few steps forward and you take, like, twice the amount of steps backwards sometimes. And you feel like all of the work you’re doing, all of the times you were vulnerable, all of the times that you’ve really like, connected with yourself just kind of go out the window. And it’s really, it’s really hard to, in the moment, to keep that confidence, you know? To keep that, like, “Okay, no, I can keep going!” You know that little self pep talk type of thing. 

SS: Honestly, I’ll share this. Um, something that I’ve been doing this past… honestly only like two weeks. I bought some expo markers and I’ve been writing little messages on my mirror that I see every morning. I don’t have like a routine with it, but whenever I feel inspired or like I did something for myself that I’m really proud of myself for, I’ll write it on my mirror so that I remember that like, yeah, I made that progress and there’s proof of it because I wrote that when I was feeling super lovable or I was feeling, like, on top of the world and empowered [laughs] and like, super vulnerable with myself or like if I was vulnerable with someone else. So I think, yeah, it’s been… it has not been a smooth journey, but I definitely feel different than I did six months ago. 100 percent.

E: Yeah, that’s so exciting. I’m really happy for you!

SS: Thank you! [laughs]

E: Sorry, I’m just processing. You said so many good things in there!

SS: It’s deep stuff, you know? And I think the part about being lovable, at least from my personal experience, that’s like the core of my self-compassion, is showing myself love. And then being able to like, once I show myself love then I’m able to give others even more love. And it just feels like, I feel things deeper now. Like I’m more in tune with like… I think a word that I’m missing in this is like, empathy. Like I think self-compassion gifts you with a lot of empathy throughout the whole journey, 100 percent.

E: Yeah. Yeah, it’s like the common humanity thing they talk about, where like, if you make a mistake, it’s not like you’re the only person in the world who’s ever messed that up.

SS: Yeah, we’re all connected. Mm-hmm.

E: Yeah, exactly. We’re all going through the same things and stuff. I was even thinking when you were talking in the beginning about self-esteem being really comparative, and you’re just like, the standard is…


E: It’s pretty made up.

SS: It is made up!


E: Like, nobody’s really there! Everyone is doing the same dang things.

SS: Yep. It is such a societal standard! Like we, that is a human-made, human-created standard. And I think it’s, you know how the reading touched on, that western culture. You know? I think it’s a really comparative, really goal oriented, like what’s success and what’s failure type of culture. And um, [laughs] yeah, it’s so opposite of self-compassion.

SS: And I think that’s why people think it’s self-indulgent, but it’s really not. It’s just being a good friend to yourself, you know? And it’s like that self-affirmation that like, you know, you are lovable and you can give love and you can be vulnerable and it’s okay, type of thing.

E: Right, yeah. Yeah. In that, in this huge process, this whole up and down thing of building this up, how do you deal with any spots where you feel stuck? Or if you do feel like you take those multiple steps backwards, have you found anything that’s helpful in like, getting back up and keeping on going with like trying to be self-compassionate?

SS: Yeah. Yeah, and that’s a really good question because I think that is what people are afraid of when you know, journeys that are this type of vulnerable. Like being on a self-compassion journey, if you have one hiccup in the road or like, you experience a really bad time during this journey, I think it’s really, like it hurts you! It hurts you deeply because you’re trying to be in tune with yourself deeply.

SS: And I think when I have felt stuck, I… I just be. I just sit in my emotions. [laughs] I tell myself, you know, like if I cry or if I’m crying in front of people, like, “I just have to let it out! I just have to let it out. I can’t force myself to not cry.” And I think in the past, like, I’ve realized that I have always forced myself to not cry if I feel those emotions. Huge blockage in my whole emotional type of journey, I think. So I think accepting that, like, “Yes, I need to cry right now! Because I’m emotionally charged, and it’s okay to be emotionally charged.”

SS: Especially, yeah, you know, like, people who identify as men. Men are not supposed to cry. And it’s just like, a borderline, that’s across the board society type of thing. And that’s like, really messed up! And like, people who identify as women, you’re not supposed to be angry. And like, you’re supposed to let it out. You’re supposed to accept these emotions. And I think there’s a lot of power in being able to accept these emotions because they’re very hard and intense emotions.

SS: And, yeah. I think being self aware of suffering… So like, we touched on this a little bit, like, everyone is suffering, but that doesn’t mean that your suffering is any worse than, you know, your peers’ suffering. And I think that when that’s mentioned in the book that we both read, I think it’s not saying that one suffering is greater than the other. It’s saying that as humans, we all experience it. And it’s okay to be, you know, self-compassionate toward yourself. It’s okay to feel stuck too. Because, um, you know that cheesy quote, like, “you fall in love with the journey, not the destination.” [laughter]

E: Right.

SS: I think with self-compassion, you are always on a journey. Like I don’t have an end goal for my self-compassion journey. And I think, for some, it’s scary to say. And I think my old self would have been scared to say that, because I used to be very goal oriented. I used to be really like, you know, “there’s an end goal that would make me successful” type of thing.

SS: But I think at the end of the day there’s just a lot of power in accepting, you know, all of the emotions, even the ones that, you know, you feel stuck. I think, yeah, resistance is not a friend. You can’t resist any emotion when you’re trying to be mindful because all emotions matter.

E: Yeah, definitely. I loved how they talked about like, that part of self-compassion is giving attention to all aspects of the situation, like the things that make you feel bad about it and the things that make you feel good about it. I don’t know. I think it’s one of those things that’s really hard to talk about but it just gets easier the more you talk about it? Is that something you’ve found?

SS: Yeah. Totally, totally. I think it’s a really deep conversation to have because self-compassion is, it’s so much! Like, I could talk about self-compassion all night because it’s all I think about and it’s been my main thing in my head for the past, like, six months. And I think, um, yeah. It’s a really personal journey and yeah, I think it’s just, it’s really important. It’s definitely one of those taboo subjects to talk about and I think it’s important because if we are not self-compassionate towards ourselves, that can come out and be expressed in so many ways, and I think that’s like, a lot of unprocessed trauma, unprocessed suffering, unprocessed emotions.

SS: And I think self-compassion is such an important aspect of who we are as like, a human, you know? If you’re not self-compassionate towards yourself, then like, how do you give compassion to others authentically? I think there’s, you know, that fake type of sympathy and then there’s that authentic, raw, empathy. And I think you really can’t be super raw and authentic with people unless you are with yourself. And I think that’s what makes people uncomfy, because you know, you just don’t talk about that stuff and it’s scary and you feel icky! Like if you share something and that’s not reciprocated? All of that stuff. And it’s never talked about and it definitely should be.

E: Yeah! Exactly! It’s like, uh, judging yourself for the thing before you say it. And then you expect, like, I don’t know! I’ve definitely noticed that like, as I’ve tried to be more vulnerable or whatever, I still so often go into conversations being like, “This person is going to think this about what I’m going to say.”

SS: Yeah, yeah.

E: And then we just like don’t even have the space to fully process what people end up saying, you know? [laughs]

SS: Mmm, no. And you said, you know, it’s the expectation. I think when it comes to being vulnerable in a friendship, in a relationship, in like a family type of relationship, you have to be emotionally intelligent when it comes to like, expecting vulnerability. Because if you expect vulnerability in return, then is that just like… are you just looking for validation from someone? Are you really like, wanting to be authentic with someone if you’re expecting that in return, you know?

SS: Super philosophical stuff, but I think it’s like, expectations, like that’s a good word to kind of talk about.

E: Right. Well, thank you so much for talking to me about this today. It’s hard to talk about! Sorry I kind of struggled through it, but I’m really glad that we got to chat about it and like, I don’t know, open the door for more uncomfy conversations.

SS: Oh, one hundred percent. I think, you know, what you’re doing over here Elliot, like we’re having these taboo conversations. We’re bringing this up to our audience because, you know,

self-compassion… I love being on a self-compassion journey. Because, you know, I think like it’s different for everyone, but I think the first couple months of trying to be mindful – cause you have to start with mindfulness, you have to start somewhere – I think it’s really hard. But I think now, like, reflecting on where I’m at, I’ve been doing a lot of, yeah, that self-work. A lot of healing and a lot of self-compassion work.  It just, it feels liberating, to be completely honest.

E: That’s so good. So good. Perfect, okay, do you have any final thoughts or anything you want to share before we wrap up?

SS: I think I appreciate you creating space for this conversation and I think, um, I think it’s something I’m really passionate about. And I hope that anyone who listens to this, um, they have interest in it because I think self-compassion is just, it’s so important moving forward and growing and developing in your friendships and your relationships. And I think, yeah, like why wouldn’t you want to be vulnerable with yourself and be your own best friend, you know?


SS: Like just enjoy your own company, party of one type of thing!

E: Exactly! You have to put up with you all the time, might as well have a good time.

SS: Right? Right? Might as well have a good time, exactly. [laughs] But yeah, thank you for creating this space, Elliot.

E: Yeah, of course. Thank you.

[outro music begins]

Elliot: Thank you all so much for listening, and an extra thank you to Sarah Spencer, both for introducing me to mindful self-compassion and taking the time to share her perspective on the podcast. If you want to take a look at the book yourself, the one we were discussing is The Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook by Kristin Neff, PhD and Christopher Germer, PhD. I wanted to highlight this workbook because a lot of different therapies and mental health help approaches have workbooks like this that are pretty easy to access online or through book stores. And while they’re definitely not a substitute for therapy and any sort of like, intense emotional exploration should be approached with a lot of caution, these books can be a really great place to start if you either can’t access therapy or you just aren’t ready to take that leap. These workbooks can be a place to start on some self-reflection, figuring out what you might want out of counseling if you ever get there, and give you some ideas on things you can work on by yourself.

If you’re interested in more resources around mental health, sexual health, wellness, and substance safety, keep up with UNC’s Office of Health Promotion on Instagram @unco_cpe or through our website, unco.edu/cpe.  This podcast was recorded in Greeley, Colorado by Sarah Spencer and Elliot Sutton. Editing and mixing by Elliot Sutton.

Since this is the season finale of Sex, Drugs, & Self Care, I want to take a second to thank everyone who made this project possible. This was a completely new type of program for our office and for me, and it would not have been possible without a lot of help and support! So thank you, big time, to everyone on my CPE team – Grace Turner, Sarah Spencer, Danielle Ananea, and Rosie Glaser. Thank you for your encouragement and support and offering the grace, space, and patience necessary for these episodes to turn out as well as they did. I also want to thank Jason Krukowski for his help with branding the podcast and integrating this project into our website, as well as every guest we’ve had this season for taking the time to educate all of us.

Big shout out, of course, to Cole Ramirez, who very very generously wrote and produced our incredible theme music. He wrote this as a fellow student and is now a UNC alum. His most recent project was scoring the short film American Damnation. You can find that and more of his music on soundcloud, @ Cole Ramirez. Seriously, it was such a huge help for him to write this, and he writes way cooler stuff, so go listen to him.

Thank you also to Bee Dellepiane, another new UNC alum, for loaning us the recording equipment needed to make this show, teaching me some audio basics, and encouraging me to try something new with this project. Bee and I have worked together on another podcast, In Astra: A Sci-fi Mystery, which is very fun, very good, very gay, filled with UNC students, and it’s available wherever you stream podcasts.

And a final thank you, of course, to you for listening! I know I learned a ton of new stuff when I was producing this season and I hope that this has been helpful in some way, or that you’ve been able to learn something new too by listening. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Please know that we at CPE are always wishing you the best and we want to know how to support you better, so let us know. We’re here. Stay healthy, stay cool, and stay safe out there. I love you! Bye!

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