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Michael Schneider
Moderator
12 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 05 2008 : 7:50:40 PM
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I e-mailed Tom a bunch of stuff on this, but one thing that struck me as contradictory that I would like to have a disscusion about is the idea that to have a virtuous life is to live a good life. I believe Plato suggests this, saying that this is like the idea that a knife's purpose is to cut well. The question that comes to my mind is this: what happens when everyone lives a good life? If everyone lives the good life, then does the term "good life" lose its meaning? If so, then do some people have to live bad lives? And if some people have to live bad lives, then the point of life for most is to live a good life, but for some, it's to live a bad one. This seems odd.
[Edited to enhance readability -TT] |
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Dan Johnson
Apprentice
27 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2008 : 12:32:38 AM
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If all knives cut well, you would still know what a good knife was. It would still have a function, and if it cut well it would be a good knife. Similarly, if all humans are just, rational, or as Plato would argue, in touch with the forms, it simply means we're all doing what humans should be doing. Obviously we aren't, but even if we had all reached the ideal, it would still be a matter of humans fulfilling their purpose, or being human, well.
Many people think there needs to be evil in order for there to be good in the world, but I think Plato sees badness as more of a general ignorance of and apathy towards the Good. He realizes that most people suck at being human, even if they are skilled in other areas, but he thinks there's a kind of education and method that can be used to shake people into right thinking and goodness.
We have a lot of bad examples of things in everyday life. Nothing is perfect, so it's hard to argue that we can know good without bad, but Plato realizes this by regarding goodness as a fulfillment of purpose. Goodness is not something we can see by simply examining how something is good in its category; rather, we see it when we find out whether or not it does what it's supposed to do by nature.
[Lightly edited to enhance readability -TT] |
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Luke Sorenson
Newcomer
3 Posts |
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Michael Schneider
Moderator
12 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2008 : 10:50:08 PM
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I like your argument. Well put Dan.
if like you say plato suggests "most people suck at being human" then very little has changed in 2500+ years. one would think that in that amount of time we would of gotten just a little bit better at it. as I see we are just as bad if not worse. From all the wars in the world, all the slavery and genocide still happening today in africa, the child sex trade in asia, to our use of nucular weapons, not on a military target but to do the most civilian damage...not just once but TWICE. these are not acts of us getting better. these are acts of us hideing from the way that humans seem to naturaly be. I sometimes beleive that Pascal is right when he says, "All the problems of mankind is because he cannot sit quietly in a room."
Am I wrong to beleive that our natural condition is wretched? I dont want to believe this but I can sometimes feel it in myself. |
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Michael Schneider
Moderator
12 Posts |
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Shannon Farrell
Newcomer
3 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2008 : 11:08:33 AM
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| If it is necessary for humans to lead good lives, to live alone in closed off rooms, or at least lives without error, then there are disastorous implications for the future. That and it just isn't plausible. The very least of it is the loss of relationships. The eventual outcome is the extinction of the race-if we all close ourselves off there can be no reproduction... I don't think that you can have a world where there is the human spirit and free will and expect that much individuality and creativity to be contained and constrained into one set way of being. I don't think all people can ever be "good" either; some people are just driven to go against what is, and if what is remains "good" then they would be "bad". |
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Michael Schneider
Moderator
12 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2008 : 6:42:27 PM
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That is a very good point Shannon, "I don't think that you can have a world where there is the human spirit and free will and expect that much individuality and creativity to be contained and constrained into one set way of being." What I suggest isnt permenant exclusion from society. But that, for instance, for crimes we lock people away alone. and that being alone is the worst punishment we have (excluding death penalty), that punishment being that we are left with only our thoughts, and if our thouths were always good that punishment wouldnt be a punishment at all. It seems that eventually our minds drift to the unpleasent thoughts of and about ourselves. that being are natural condition is toward the negative.
your next sentence intregues me too, "I don't think all people can ever be "good" either; some people are just driven to go against what is, and if what is remains "good" then they would be "bad"." do you think that all people are inharently good? that we are all born with an ingrained knowledge of what good is. that it is somehow for lack of a better word "devine" in nature? like all criminals know what they did was really wrong. Or is what believe to be, "right and wrong", or "good and bad" something that is taught?
I really am intrested in hearing what everyones philosophy is on these things. I had some friends that I tried to talk about these things, and they all basicly said, "i dont know, or who cares." I cant help but believe that we have to ask these questions that everyone should seek out answers, and I believe in all of us is the right answer. |
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The Virtue of a Good Life
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